[2017] Artikelbrief

    • Offizieller Beitrag

    Wir haben den [url=http://www.landsknechtlager.info/forum/index.php/topic,302.0.html]Artikelbrief von 2016[/url]. Er braucht, wie fast jedes Jahr, Bestätigung und Ànderung. Was soll bleiben? Was soll ersetzt werden? Was muss neu mit rein?


    Ich würde gerne den Artikel zu Büchsen im Lager umbauen auf "Pulver im Lager".


    Und dann kam ein Wunsch auf: Ist jemand von uns des Englischen mächtig genug, um den Artikelbrief anschliessend auf Englisch zu übersetzen? (Horst? Micha? Sonstjemand? Nico?)

    • Offizieller Beitrag

    Da der Artikelbrief doch etwas spannender war als Essays über Shakespeare zu lesen:
    Hier mal mein Versuch den Artikelbrief zu übersetzen. Begriffe bei denen ich mir unsicher war, wie ich sie übersetzen soll habe ich in Klammern gesetzt. Vorschläge werden gerne angenommen.


    Announcement of Articles
    From which the [Kriegsknechte] and [Wehrmagden] all together will be read to firstly / And whereof each and everyone of them will be put under oath / If before that / under old custom inspection has been done.


    The oath is given / for the length of the campaign / The [Knechte) swear / to prevent harm from the Obrist/Colonel / to be obedient in everything without any question to each and everyone of the officers that the Obrist/Colonel commands in everything / which they with them do or order / which is entitled to men at war/ be they of nobility or not / of minor or of major growth / not to make mutiny / but to let themselves be used/ be it towards or by the enemy / in the field or at keeping watch/ on land and sea / by day or by night / However the urgency commands it and the Obrist/Colonel wants or needs it / to be used or sent by the order of the officers, be it alone or in Rotten.


    Ad primum they shall refrain from / blaspheming Gods and Saints /and also pledge themselves / to not excessively harm their temples and servants.


    Ad secundum shall be without honour and brought before the Provost/ who, without having served his pay / leaves the Fähnlein without permission of the Obrist/Colonel


    Ad tertium shall no Landsknecht on the field leave the formation without a serious reason / and whoever denies / to follow the orders given to keep up the formation / shall be brought before the Provost


    Ad quartum shall [Sturmsold] not be granted/ but other Landsknecht should be chosen to besiege castles and cities/ if one is not content enough with the chance on looting. Furthermore, they will not claim any additional payment / if they should be attacked and withstand said attack in the place occupied by them


    Ad quintum shall no one loot at a day where looting is not permitted or be punished. Thus, looting shall only be done if it is noted / but only in agreed measures and not more than that shall be claimed. In storming and in battle shall no one loot or make booty /before the field is taken / and furthermore, shall no one leave the camp to loot without permission.


    Ad sextum shall/ whoever in battle or skirmish flees / be held andbrought before the Provost/ he shall be thanked /whoever catches such a coward


    Ad septimum shall everyone serve as his contract says and show said contract to get his payment/ and no one shall claim their payment from the Obrist/Colonel /if their payment is not given to them immediately


    Ad octavum shall the Landsknechts without permission from one of the officers postpone [the council] till dusk/ and they shall not, be it on the field or in the camp / nor in occupied towns or camps have negotiations with the enemy / be it orally or written


    Ad nonum shall they swear / that whoever brings treason or other mischief to display / shall get a reward or more and be thanked for that / the traitor shall be brought before the Provost


    Ad decimum Shall no Landsknecht stab or shoot the other / nor should they invoke old grudges or hatred/ not in words /nor in deeds. If it comes to brawling / The bystanders shall command peace thrice / whoever does not obey after said commands shall be held and brought before the Provost/ so he shall deal with this wrongdoer


    Ad undecimum Shall no Landsknecht start an argument with another Landsknecht in the army which he does not know/ additionally he shall, to prevent arguments, avoid gambling with them.


    Ad duodecimum Shall everyone let themselves be send by the officers however it pleases them if the [music for gathering] is played/ and they shall gather with them


    Ad tertium decimum Shall no one stop the Provost and his helpers in performing their duties / whoever frees one of said traitors / shall be punished / as if he himself was the fled wrongdoer


    Ad quartum decimum Shall no one enrol themselves under two captains or let themselves be inspected twice or lend his arms and armour to another one / so that he can be inspected with them/ whoever does so/ shall be scolded as a rogue and furthermore be brought before the Provost


    Ad quintum decimum be the pillaging/ burning or setting fire to camps without permission / to sound alarm without need / the destroying of mills or millstones / as well as every intervention in the rights and freedom of the press prohibited


    Ad sextum decimum shall the Landsknechts not deceive each other whilst gambling / not steal from one another/ not hit another [Knecht] or do him wrong. Furthermore, shall it be prohibited to gamble further than the partner in game can pay in coins. A debt through gambling is in every possible way invalid under the Obrist/Colonel and the Landsknechts. Whoever contravenes against this shall be scolded as a rogue and shall be known as crafty and be brought before the Provost


    Ad septimum decimum shall they swear / where one whilst being inebriated is being hit by the friends or hits some in said state /or however else mistreats them / shall be as if he was sober/ brought before the Provost/ as if he was sober.


    Ad duodevicesimum Shall no one at dangerous places / especially by night shoot/ and no one leave the camp without weapons.


    Ad undevicesimum shall they swear / that the booty they find in the houses and huts of the citizens or any other loot taken from the enemy shall belong to the looter but looted cattle and looted provisions shall only be sold in the camp itself / how it was given to the Tönnes


    Ad vicesimum shall only the officers be allowed to carry loaded and unloaded rifles in the camp


    Ad vicesimum primum it is noted how the Landsknecht shall receive his payment from the Obrist/Colonel and only then shall one or more receive their payment / only how it is contracted and only if it was not yet paid to him


    Ad postremum shall they furthermore swear / that they will obey and hold in honour/ other articles / shall they not be in detail noted here/ but always known by righteous Landsknechts/ be it that those Articles are not concluded in here.

  • Obrist = Colonel.


    Aber vielleicht willst du einiges nicht übersetzen, in dem Fall würd ich "Kriegsknechte" und "Knechte" einfach als "Landsknechts" schreiben ("hired men" wäre glaubs korrekt; geht aber genauso wenig mit den Mägden).


    Sturmsold: assault pay (vermutlich)


    Steckenknechte: Alamy (stock-photo site) denkt es wären "helpers of the provost with sticks" ;))

  • The ranks and such we could understand, so no problem there.
    Two questions though:


    - The Fähnlein here means the whole camp / paid fighting force of the camp right?


    - at "Ad duodecimum Shall everyone let themselves be send by the officers however it pleases them if the tatoo is played/ and they shall gather with them"
    What does the tatoo mean? The sound played for gathering?

    "Ever noticed when you see two groups who really hate each other, chances are good that they are wearing different kind of hats. Keep an eye on that, might be important"

    • Offizieller Beitrag

    The Fähnlein means the whole of the paid soldiers, as O understand it!


    Yes, I chose "tatoo" here as a placeholder until i find a cool english sounding word that is not "alarm". The word Tatoo is not too fitting, since it is originally the sound played to call the soldiers back into their tents/barracks.

  • Maybe "rouse" instead of tatoo can work

    "Ever noticed when you see two groups who really hate each other, chances are good that they are wearing different kind of hats. Keep an eye on that, might be important"

  • We've got two important signals:
    Umschlagen = Sofortiges Versammeln
    This is what "rouse" or "tatoo" or whatever means. Come RIGHT NOW, not matter whether you're wearing a hose, or whatever you're carrying.


    Lermen = in 15 Minuten Sammeln gerüstet
    "Lermen" actually comes from "A L'arme" -- to arms, and means you need to appear in 15minutes, in armour, armed and dangerous. It will be repeated after 15 minutes, so you know when the time to appear is.


    See also for more: http://www.landsknechtlager.info/w/index.php/Musik

  • Was ich schon immer mal fragen wollte, gibt es die lateinischen Zahlen? Ich meine die sind spätestens ab der 12 falsch.
    Allerdings ist mein Latein mittlerweile etwas, sagen wir...tot.


    Bitte mal prüfen, Danke!

    Valentin Aschbrenner - Mönchsgrund - Wes Brot ich ess, des Lied ich sing - auch wenn ich selbst den Taktstock schwing!

  • Aber dann isses nicht "A"!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
    :jaeckle:

    Valentin Aschbrenner - Mönchsgrund - Wes Brot ich ess, des Lied ich sing - auch wenn ich selbst den Taktstock schwing!

    • Offizieller Beitrag

    Blau sagt, der Fronspi habe's so gemacht.


    In dem Moment, wo du diesen obigen Satz verstehst, Valentin - in dem Moment wird deine "A :jin: :jaeckletrinkt: :jaeckle:" - Aussage für dich obsolet werden. :*


    Oder, etwas vorbildlicher: Die Nummerierung müsste aus dem Werk von Friedrich Blau sein, der sich wiederum auf das Kriegsbuch des Leonhard Fronsperger beruft. Ein Grossteil des Wikipedia-Artikels über Landsknechte basiert darauf - leider lebte Blau vor mehr als einem Jahrhundert, entsprechend eingefärbt sind seine Überlegungen. Fronsperger wiederum ist eine gute Quelle, allerdings von ~1550, entsprechend lesbar ist sie.


    Unser Artikelbrief basiert auf der Blau-Übersetzung und hat allerhand Anpassungen erfahren, meist haben wir (historisch spannende) belegte Elemente durch (spielerisch verheissungsvollere) Larp-Elemente ersetzt.

  • Hi Kendra,


    ich hab im Blau gerade nachgeschlagen. Der Inhalt passt ja, nur die Nummerierung ist
    warscheinlich falsch. Ich bin aber kein Lateiner.


    Zudem denke ich, die Ernsthaftigkeit meines Kommentars kannst Du gut einschätzen.
    Ob das Ding nun Korrekt ist oder nicht, ist für mich nicht kriegesentscheidend. ;D


    Aber, wenn es schon auf der Agenda steht, dann erwähne ich das zumindes mal.
    Ich bemühe mich um ein klein wenig Mitarbeit. ;)

    Valentin Aschbrenner - Mönchsgrund - Wes Brot ich ess, des Lied ich sing - auch wenn ich selbst den Taktstock schwing!

    • Offizieller Beitrag

    Falls du den Blau hast: Top. Ich benutze immer books.google. Manchmal fehlt es dort... ;D


    Aber ich hinterfrage mich gerade, ob wir für einen aventurischen Obristen eine neue Zählweise einbauen sollten. Kababylothisch, oder sowas... oder ob ein aventurischer Obrist da eh eine eigene Variante kennt...?

    • Offizieller Beitrag

    Kendra: falls "der Blaue" mal bei Google Books fehlt: hat's als Print-Ausgabe im Speicher :).


    Ich fänds nett, manche Sachen auf den Hintergrund vom neuen Obrist anzupassen, aber den Artikelbrief halte ich da nicht für die erste Wahl. Der muss einerseits verständlich sein (Hintergrund/historisch/Larp), andererseits genug Beamtensprache/Geschwurbel enthalten.
    Deshalb halte ich die lateinischen Zahlen auch eher für sekundär, aber ich fänds interessant zu wissen, obs historisch&sprachlich korrekt ist. Einfach, um es zu wissen :).


    Inhaltlich habe ich keine Ahnung, daher keine Vorschläge.