[2017] cannon for the camp

1. offizieller Beitrag

    Hi!


    It seems like that I will be able to finally bring a group of hungarians in 2017 to the camp and the idea cam up that we could build a larp safe cannon (that are compatibel with the rules and the local laws) and bring that too with us.


    The real question is: Does the camp need a cannon? Can we use it in a meaningful way?


    In my opinion it is possible to use it attached to the formation in one way or another and be effective with it even against other formation not just against walls.
    That said I also realize that it can cause mobility problems for the formation, plus probably there are other things that I didn't thought of.


    Any comments/ideas on this?

    "Ever noticed when you see two groups who really hate each other, chances are good that they are wearing different kind of hats. Keep an eye on that, might be important"

    Einmal editiert, zuletzt von Kendra ()

    it might be an exellent camp defense, not so much in an open battle. Build it, place it with the ground in front of the gate in range, and maybe there will be an opportunity to take it into the field. But be prepared to not use it very much.
    Cannon drill for ourselves would be fun, i think.

    we didn't solved it yet, but looked at the options. Hubert recommended a rubber band mechanics that is closer to a crossbow work-wise but can be made in a way that it looks like a cannon. (and probably we can put some sound effects in it, either electronically or with "party popper" thingies that make a good enough sounds)


    Sadly the gas operated cannons not allowed and our existing one is like that that's why we make a new one.

    "Ever noticed when you see two groups who really hate each other, chances are good that they are wearing different kind of hats. Keep an eye on that, might be important"

    The rubber band is only allowed if it can not be fixated. Means: You have to hold the rubber band in your hand and release it. So it has to work like a bow, not like a cross bow.


    Zitat


    1.2.2 designed for firing fixed bodies at a target, the driving power of which is provided by muscle power and can be stored by a stopping device (e. g. crossbows); this shall not apply to solid bodies provided with elastic tips (e. g. rubber suction cups) where the maximum kinetic energy of the projectiles` tips does not exceed 0.16 J/cm2;

    :jin:


    http://www.gesetze-im-internet…englisch_waffg.html#p0715

    Aren't crossbows allowed as long as you are over 18?

    "Ever noticed when you see two groups who really hate each other, chances are good that they are wearing different kind of hats. Keep an eye on that, might be important"

    sure. You are allowed to buy, it, to own it and to carry it in public, EXCEPT:


    Zitat

    Section 42
    Ban on carrying weapons at public events


    (1) Anyone who takes part in public entertainment, festivals, sporting events, trade fairs, exhibitions, markets or similar public events may not carry weapons as defined in Section 1 (2)


    a crossbow is a portable item equal under the law to guns. Drachenfest is a public event as the condition to enter is only to buy a ticket.


    The only canon I know which is legal is "La Boom". The canon of the blue camp. It has a kind of rubber cloth at the bottom with a handle. To "fire" it the rubber is pulled back at the hndle and the handle released. So the power is provided by muscle BUT


    ... and can be stored by a stopping device...


    doesn`t apply.

    Zitat von Jäckle Roßbach


    Drachenfest is a public event as the condition to enter is only to buy a ticket.


    Ehh, didn't knew that. Here if you have to buy a ticket that doesn't count as a public ticket anymore (even for photograph reasons. Laws for making photos are kind of fucked up around here.)


    Anyway, then technically ALL the crossbows illegal on drachenfest? Because that's really messed up.

    "Ever noticed when you see two groups who really hate each other, chances are good that they are wearing different kind of hats. Keep an eye on that, might be important"

    Zitat von Sonir

    Anyway, then technically ALL the crossbows illegal on drachenfest? Because that's really messed up.


    Not necessarily. As a visitor paying for a ticket for a public event which is a LARP event, one can assume that because of the nature of the event the host has applied for a an exception. Because they could under paragraph 16


    Zitat

    (2) For events at which it is customary to carry weapons for a specific reason, a special licence to carry the guns referred to in subsection 1 first sentence and other weapons as defined in Section 1 (2) no. 2 which are needed to maintain a tradition may be issued to a person in charge of the association of traditional marksmen for a period of five years, subject to the requirements of Section 42 (2), if a guarantee is given that the necessary care will be taken.


    It is made especially clear under the arms rule, that "carnival events" can come under this exception.


    However, this allows you only to carry the crossbow. To shoot at people you must either have a "CE" marking on the crossbow which converts it from "weapon" into "toy", or you must proof that it meets the following criteria


    Zitat

    1.2.2 designed for firing fixed bodies at a target, the driving power of which is provided by muscle power and can be stored by a stopping device (e. g. crossbows); this shall not apply to solid bodies provided with elastic tips (e. g. rubber suction cups) where the maximum kinetic energy of the projectiles` tips does not exceed 0.16 J/cm2;

    meanwhile different approach:
    So as long as there is no stopping device it's cool? because we can make one where you pull the elastic band with a string and releasing it will shoot out the foam ball. That way it would be technically a bow.

    "Ever noticed when you see two groups who really hate each other, chances are good that they are wearing different kind of hats. Keep an eye on that, might be important"

    • Offizieller Beitrag

    Um, wouldn't a cannon look silly, if there's always someone behind it, holding that rubber band?
    I think cannons would be quite cool, if the cannon would be used as a siege weapon. But this usually takes some waiting time, only to get busy, once started.
    I like cannons, but I think, they are useless in a normal battle. I guess, that's one of the reasons, we don't use cannons anymore.



    Seegras, if everyone can buy a ticket, its a public event. If you need a registration, like usually at swiss Larps, it's a private event. I assume.

    the charging mechanism could be worked into the cannon. I wouldn't mind a barrel with a lever sticking out to pull back and release. Release manually, of course.
    I think I saw a design somewhere similar to a carnival "high striker" (had to look that one up) where you do not pull or "store" anything, but hammer a mechanism in the back which in turn hammers the projectile out the barrel. Whole thing needs to be build quite sturdy, of course. There would also be a dude with a sledgehammer working behind the cannon, which would make them even less useable in open battle.



    On the question of legality of cannons and guns: Does the camp care?
    Looking at all the crossbows used (and sold) at the DF and the various cannons in other camps (got shot at by a nice looking piece from trium camp) I certainly don't, my only concern would be wether this thing is safe to be around or not, but a discussion is warranted.
    That question will certainly come up later anyway, with the gunners coming from blue to us and all that.

    To abide the law or not is not a camp issue I think.


    Your choice


    First offense should be a fine of some hundred Euros, not imprisonment.


    four years ago there was a cannon crew in the blue camp which used VERY effectively their cannon in the battles. They stayed behind the formation while reloading, then when they were ready they signalled, a few people with polearms walked in front of it while the rest of the formation oppened up a little, shot the cannon from the front rows, then retreated back while the closed in.
    So it is possible, the qestion is if this or other kind of methods are compatible with our fighting method and if this worths the effort to drill for that too.


    About the firing thing, if the string that pulls up the whole thing is a transparent fishing line for example it doesn't look that silly and the one who operates it doesn't have to stand literally next to it.

    "Ever noticed when you see two groups who really hate each other, chances are good that they are wearing different kind of hats. Keep an eye on that, might be important"

    Hey, one of our people it's also half way through making a cannon and though he is not building it solely for DF he was planing to bring it next year. It would be only a siege cannon, put down doors and such...punctual stuff and he has no intention of carrying it to field battles.


    Do I assume correctly than the camp it's ok with it as long as it goes through the approval of the DF orga?.


    By the way the cannon uses compress air as well and I agree that having a guy pulling a sling from behind looks silly... La Boom it's not the most graceful sight in the field either XD


    Zitat von L. Saltz


    On the question of legality of cannons and guns: Does the camp care?
    Looking at all the crossbows used (and sold) at the DF and the various cannons in other camps (got shot at by a nice looking piece from trium camp) I certainly don't, my only concern would be wether this thing is safe to be around or not, but a discussion is warranted.
    That question will certainly come up later anyway, with the gunners coming from blue to us and all that.


    I certainly would like to know about the outcome of that discussion sooner than later ::). The guns had been used in DF before and proven safe. The discussion upon using them with the DF orga was basically "they are great, but if something happens the responsibility it's on you".


    I imagine it is the case with any other siege/projectile weapons players come upon, they (the orga) basically allow them unless they obviously armful for the players. Same thing with crossbows and such, they shouldn't be used in the event according to the law but they are, and it's not like we have a police patrol cheeking on the event.


    PD: He states that in case that it won't be allowed, if he manages to transport it from Spain he will still carry it, just as atrezzo. The carriage looks aweomse already ^^